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Queries

Post by MilliWind on Sun 8 Jan - 10:20:51

Congratulations to both of you! I think both of you played very solid games, and I'm glad I got to work with both of you at some point in the game, even though it was very late in the case of Kachina. I have a couple of questions for you individually, and a couple for the both of you.

First -- DAYMAN:
We were in an alliance sporadically (a main alliance for me, apparently a side-alliance for you) throughout the game. Despite this, you told me and my alliance many lies, which made working with you very difficult. Do you feel any of those lies were unnecessary?

There is some confusion among the jury on the vote right before the merge where Princess got idoled out by Aaron. What was your role, and was getting Princess out your ultimate goal in that vote? If so, what was your reasoning for not wanting to go into the merge with a Cohen 6-3 lead?

Kachina:
We weren't on the same tribe before the merge, and it we didn't really talk until a couple of rounds into the merge. What were some of the strategies and moves you used to get through the pre-merge?

What was your ultimate motive for voting Shy Guy with Dayman and me at Final 5 tribal, and did Shelby know you were voting Shy Guy prior to tribal (it sounds like the answer is no)?

For both:
You were both visible strategic and challenge threats, but yet you managed to both make it to the end. What were the biggest social and strategic moves you made to make sure the target was off of you?


Lastly, I have not played a full-length ORG before, let alone on iMDB. I felt like this put me at a distinct disadvantage, because I didn't have any relationships with anyone going in. However, I thought that maybe the anonymity would lessen the amount of cliques that one generally needs to fight through when playing online games with a new group. After seeing how everything went down, it appears that since this was my first game, no strategy or building of relationships I did would have mattered, because at the end, the two of you had an understanding that nobody could break. Given the anonymity of this game that was promoted in this game, do you think your secret alliance was appropriate? Because honestly I couldn't tell the difference between this game and any other.

Good Luck!
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Re: Queries

Post by MilliWind on Sun 8 Jan - 10:27:59

Dayman, you don't need to focus too much on the second question, I see you covered it in your response to Spooky.
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Re: Queries

Post by DAYMAN on Sun 8 Jan - 10:47:13

Congratulations to both of you! I think both of you played very solid games, and I'm glad I got to work with both of you at some point in the game, even though it was very late in the case of Kachina.

Thanks Milli!

First -- DAYMAN:
We were in an alliance sporadically (a main alliance for me, apparently a side-alliance for you) throughout the game. Despite this, you told me and my alliance many lies, which made working with you very difficult. Do you feel any of those lies were unnecessary?

There is some confusion among the jury on the vote right before the merge where Princess got idoled out by Aaron. What was your role, and was getting Princess out your ultimate goal in that vote? If so, what was your reasoning for not wanting to go into the merge with a Cohen 6-3 lead?

For unnecessary lies: This is a very tough question to answer, because honestly I am thinking about so many things on a day-to-day basis in the game, and so many of the votes were very complex and layered, that I won't be able to just off-the-top-of-my-head think of lies that might have been unnecessary. I certainly admit I might have lied unnecessarily, I just can't think of any specific example right now. I will say that if I do something in a game, there is almost always a reason behind it. If you can give me a specific example of something I said that seemed unnecessary, I will gladly try to remember what I was thinking at the time.

The Minty vote I think I explained in great detail as I was answering Spooky. If you need further explanation about it after reading that response, please let me know.

For both:
You were both visible strategic and challenge threats, but yet you managed to both make it to the end. What were the biggest social and strategic moves you made to make sure the target was off of you?

My social game can be described as constantly fluid and adaptable. I like to talk with everyone if given the chance, that way I can assess the dynamics of pairs and groups as well as the individual abilities of each player. In this game, I kept trying to search for people I knew gave me the best chance to get to this point. With Minty in the game, no chance so she had to go. With the remaining Cohen 5, I didn't see anyone but Spooky that might take me to the end (please see my response to Spooky). Within Brady, I knew Kachina would take me to the end and I suspected Shelby would keep me in at F4, with Kachina's sway. Beyond that, for each merge vote I made sure to consider all the possible outcomes, listen to each player's targets and possible bluffs, be wary of idols and how to play mine, and made the choice that left me in the best possible position for the following round.

Lastly, I have not played a full-length ORG before, let alone on iMDB. I felt like this put me at a distinct disadvantage, because I didn't have any relationships with anyone going in. However, I thought that maybe the anonymity would lessen the amount of cliques that one generally needs to fight through when playing online games with a new group. After seeing how everything went down, it appears that since this was my first game, no strategy or building of relationships I did would have mattered, because at the end, the two of you had an understanding that nobody could break. Given the anonymity of this game that was promoted in this game, do you think your secret alliance was appropriate? Because honestly I couldn't tell the difference between this game and any other.

I understand your frustration, Milli. And I remember when it was brought up in the game. When you reached out to Shy after Ryan left, and he showed your PM to Kachina, and Kachina showed me. I saw that you felt isolated in a game where people might know each other. Me personally, I am not good at guessing identities. Never have been. I didn't know who anyone was in this game until Kachina started hinting to me who they might be. He seemed much more skilled at picking people out from their speech patterns. I played the game like I enjoy mystery games to be played - with anonymity. I don't feel I had any advantages in game play than anyone else. The only one I had was the same anyone from IMDb had in knowing who dnash and Spooky were. But that was their choice to play as themselves, and they take that risk that people know them. I also heard that at some point dnash and Spooky figured out who Shy was, which created that situation where Shy trusted Spooky but not dnash - based on history.

As for my secret alliance with Kachina, I think you are implying that was from the start. Far from it! The first time I considered myself as working long time with Kachina was at F8! From that point, based on it making sense for my game, I chose that path. But I hope you are not suggesting I had some advantage here. I played the game round-to-round based on what was best for my game and that is all.
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Re: Queries

Post by DAYMAN on Sun 8 Jan - 10:47:26

Thank you for your questions, Milli.
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Re: Queries

Post by Kachina on Sun 8 Jan - 18:50:17

Congratulations to both of you! I think both of you played very solid games, and I'm glad I got to work with both of you at some point in the game, even though it was very late in the case of Kachina. I have a couple of questions for you individually, and a couple for the both of you.

Thanks, Milli.  Had we been on the same tribe originally, I would've liked to work with you.  I was pretty impressed how you deflected the target from yourself after Ryan was voted out.  For someone who's never played a game before, that was hardcore.  Made you a bigger threat in my eyes, but... respect.

Kachina:
We weren't on the same tribe before the merge, and it we didn't really talk until a couple of rounds into the merge. What were some of the strategies and moves you used to get through the pre-merge?

Well, I am from IMDb.  I tend to be a challenge threat in games.  It took a lot for me to not try to take control of the tribe from day 1.  Most, but not all, of the challenges, I actually understood better than I let on, but I didn't want to seem controlling.  *Not all* is important here because there was one in particular that I was just a complete idiot and completely misunderstood something.  I tried to be diplomatic - I hoped we'd win, but in the long-term, it seemed a bigger advantage to be in a good social position, and create a bond between those of us left, than to be in a huge majority (or a majority at all).  What happened to the original Cohen is probably a great example of that... you guys won everything, but when the merge happened, you all went in different directions.  You were the last person in your tribe to try to work with original Brady, and me in particular.  

With the tribe swap, I tried to form relationships with Dnash and ID, for that very reason.  There was always the chance you could've Pagonged us into oblivion, and we needed, at the very least, a lot of information - so I got to work on that as soon as I could.  We also threw the first challenge to keep Aaron safe, figuring we could easily vote out Pancake, taking a number from Cohen while hopefully keeping Aaron with us, or at least give him a chance to form relationships and, with any luck, report back to us... the 2nd challenge is a little more iffy what happened there (I'm not even sure - it was a mess).  So, basically, I relied on forming those relationships, and we all worked to preserve them however we could, while also trying to form new relationships - and new routes for information - preparing for the merge.  I made myself useful while trying to not seem controlling, to keep the vote off me.  The first round, I wanted to just avoid the twists, so made a point to people that I voted differently (but still a safe vote) - so if they wanted to off me for an idol clue, they'd have to wait at least 1 extra round.  

What was your ultimate motive for voting Shy Guy with Dayman and me at Final 5 tribal, and did Shelby know you were voting Shy Guy prior to tribal (it sounds like the answer is no)?

It was really to keep Shy Guy safe, and to maybe give Shelby slightly better odds (if only in the process of coming to terms with my own guilt... heh).  I did vote with you guys, but as I mentioned in my response to Ryan, I knew Shy Guy would be saved by the idol before I actually voted.  Dayman probably caught on, and I figured he might, but it at least stood a better chance than outright voting for you.  

Shelby knew I was voting for Shy Guy.  Well, she thought I already did vote for Shy Guy.  I asked her to play her idol for him.  

For both:
You were both visible strategic and challenge threats, but yet you managed to both make it to the end. What were the biggest social and strategic moves you made to make sure the target was off of you?

As I said to Spooky, 2 of the most crucial social moves - aside from trying to keep Brady in tact and together during the merge - were my relationships with Dayman and Dnash.  Finally full-on working with Dayman was a real game changer, since - yeah - both of us are strategic threats, so our strategy discussions were epic.  But getting there took a little time and building trust.  I think we both played our hand leading up to it, sharing information with each other and discussing whatever new level that popped up in the game.   Through Dnash, I learned about Cohen's dynamic, both directly and indirectly, through alliances he proposed.  While I gather he's very upset at me now, I trusted he wasn't targeting me, no matter who else he was working with.  He included me in an alliance with Dnash and Spooky, which gave me the opportunity to talk to Spooky (despite us all being from the same board, Spooky and I have never talked before this game, and was great getting to meet him, even if brief and his throat being slashed shortly after), which helped me suss out part of the Cohen dynamic, etc...

I pretended that Brady and I weren't close, that I was perpetually on the fence, then I'd report back to Brady with information learned (some of it - never all of it) and ask them their thoughts and ideas and how they wanted to proceed, making a point to not dictate, but only offer information and possible scenarios based on those.  What I shared and didn't share with people was very deliberate, always making sure I had plausible deniability, and making sure that even if things got around, there was a previous conversation I could point to and say, "I already told you that" with whatever information that was left out just seeming peripheral (even if it was actually crucial to me).  I figured out how other people communicated, what and who they valued in this game, and tried to mirror that and adapt to their own communication styles, to create (as well as I could, though I'm sure I had some slip-ups) an "in-crowd" impression where I shared their values.  I tried to make sure that everyone relied on, especially when I needed them to, to make sure I could stay ahead of the curve.  I probed with conversational questions, even offering information to see how people would react, thus letting me make a reasonable assumption about what they already knew, based on their responses.  It all sounds very sociopathic - I don't deny that.  But it was to keep myself safe in this cannibalistic game, and hopefully keep everyone with me safe as long as possible.  

I can't say I played the most loyal game I've ever played.  I did vote Shy Guy out of the game, and you can see my response to Dnash for the backstory there.  Throughout this game, I developed such great relationships with so many people, that cutting anyone became really difficult.  My confessionals, at least during certain periods, are probably less filled with strategy and more with a semi-sincere existential crisis. Laughing I realize it's a game, and this was a particularly difficult game, so I hope no one took anything too personally - though if they did, I get it.  So I did keep that awareness through it.  But I also understand that everyone invests a lot of time and energy in these games, we all talk to each other - about strategy and about things unrelated to the game, just because even online, you're stuck with a group of people you're talking to and getting to know night after night - and it can be easy for those lines to blur.  It happens to everyone, at some point.  So the crises weren't completely 100%, part of it was venting while keeping in my mind that it's a game.  But on a social level, reconciling all of that was the most difficult part for me.  But I did it.  And while I did eventually legit vote out Shy Guy, we originally were all going to be in the final 4.  So, throughout all of that social maneuvering, I did my best to help make sure that Shy Guy and Shelby were safe at least until that point.  So I made those social and strategic moves with the intention of getting us all there, at least - throughout it, Dayman and I became closer, and was such an amazing ally to have, even beyond the subterfuge and little stand-offs/fishing expeditions we had, just working with him as an ally was amazing.  And while I obviously can't take sole credit for that (I wouldn't be here without Dayman, Shy Guy, and Shelby - the best social maneuvering in the world is meaningless if you don't have that end game support) it's clear that Dayman and Dnash were very important in making that happen, and I had a closer relationship with each of them than Shy Guy and Shelby had with them.  

Lastly, I have not played a full-length ORG before, let alone on iMDB. I felt like this put me at a distinct disadvantage, because I didn't have any relationships with anyone going in. However, I thought that maybe the anonymity would lessen the amount of cliques that one generally needs to fight through when playing online games with a new group. After seeing how everything went down, it appears that since this was my first game, no strategy or building of relationships I did would have mattered, because at the end, the two of you had an understanding that nobody could break. Given the anonymity of this game that was promoted in this game, do you think your secret alliance was appropriate? Because honestly I couldn't tell the difference between this game and any other.

Dayman and I didn't have a secret alliance - certainly not from the beginning.  I had a pretty good idea of who he was based on the very first challenge, but I kept quiet about it.  And while I love Dayman/the person behind Dayman, he's a dangerous player - crazy skills in these games.  I wasn't about to immediately trust him. Dayman and I didn't talk until the merge - had either of us completely trusted each other right off the bat, that trusting fool would've been ripped to shreds.  I know that about him, he knows that about me.  We had to build to that, with a lot of bluffs, a lot of cons, and a lot of sharing of information.  It did give me some advantage, because I already had some idea of how I could get him to trust me and what he'd respond well to.  But that certainly wasn't something that started at the beginning of the game, or even at the beginning of us first talking to each other.

As you probably guessed with the Dnash vs. Shy Guy war, just because we all know each other doesn't mean we all like each other.  It doesn't even mean we've all even talked to each other before.  Some of us are bitter at others for previous games.  IMDb has public games, on the forum itself, everyone knows who everyone is; IMDb also has mystery games, where identities are concealed and revealing your identity is a big no-no.  However, this game is neither of those.  The format makes the mystery element completely optional - adding a whole new level of strategy, choosing whether to reveal your identity or not (and revealing it can easily backfire, depending on who it's revealed to).  It also means keeping up with what other people do, and adapting your own strategy to what others do.  It's something I love about this game, because it's like the Wild West of games - you can pull anything out of your sleeve without having to worry if it's fair, because everything is fair in this game.  Even the application we all filled out mentions that it's your choice whether you play as yourself or as a character, and one of the questions was something like, "what advantage or disadvantage do you see to playing as yourself?" Whether that put you at an advantage or disadvantage largely depended on how the game unfolded.  I will say that most everyone assumed you were from IMDb, which I *think* is a compliment!  

But the Dayman/Kachina alliance... that was through work, and didn't start until the merge.  Yes, maybe some advantage in getting a sense of what we could expect of each other once we established that bond in this game, but getting there was very tricky.  I would never underestimate Dayman, and I don't think he'd underestimate me.  Had a couple things gone differently, it's possible one of us would've slashed the other down... hard.
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Re: Queries

Post by DAYMAN on Sun 8 Jan - 19:24:18

I would have done it gently actually.
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Re: Queries

Post by MilliWind on Thu 12 Jan - 11:38:54

Well, my vote is in. It was a very difficult choice and I thank you both for your very revealing answers.
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